Alphabet News ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.math,comp.misc, alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.jewish,talk.religion Path: stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!novia!newsfeed.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net !ix.netcom.com!hexis Followup-To: alt.folklore.urban,rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.math, comp.misc,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers, soc.culture.jewish,talk.religion Organization: Netcom On-Line Services X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Message-ID: References: <5ph4ma$apn@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <5pj6ao$l26@nr1.calgary.istar.net> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:20:17 GMT From: hexis@netcom.com (James C. Harrison) Subject: Re: Linguistic Sources (was Re: 666 which was: Re: The Bible Code) Adam Hough (adamh@spots.ab.ca) wrote: : On 3 Jul 1997 21:13:46 GMT Ray Depew wrote about "Re: 666 (was: Re: The Bible Code)" in alt.folklore.computers: : > : In soc.culture.jewish on 2 Jul 1997 22:13:47 GMT wcw@math.psu.edu : > : > : Since I have a bigger audience I will tell you how when I was 11 I : > : first learned the Hebrew word for alphabet which is aleph-bais after : > : the first two letters of the Hebrew alphabet. I thought it was a : > : silly juvenile word, equivalent to the children's term ABC's. It was : > : more than 10 years later that it dawned on me where the English word : > : 'alphabet' came from.... And I know from asking that many others still : > : haven't noticed it. : I'd always assumed it came from "alpha beta" which are the first two : letters of the Greek alphabet. However since both languages (as far as : I know) come from the same source in the Indian subcontinent (my : memory fails as to the proper name :)) you're close enough that it : doesn't matter! Greek is an Indoeuropean language related to but not derived from Sanskrit and other Indian languages. The language of the Phoenicians was very similar to Hebrew and belongs to the Semitic language group that also includes Arabic and many languages in North East Africa. It has been conjectured that the Indoeuropean and Semitic language families are distantly related, but that's highly debatable. The deep differences between Indoeuropean and Semetic languages are not. The Greeks picked up the Phoenician names for the letters when they adopted the alphabet. Alpha and Beta are just translitterations of Aleph and Beth. They aren't derived from Greek words at all. Incidentally, the Greeks knew perfectly well that they had adapted their alphabet from the Phoenician alphabet. "These Phoenicians brought to Greece various matters of learning and, very notably, the alphabet, which in my opinion had not been known to the Greeks before." (Heroditus 5.58) The Greek word for letters, in fact, was phoinikeia, "Phoenician things." hexis : -- : Regards : Adam Hough (adamh@spots.ab.ca) | Is it a bird? A plane? : http://www.spots.ab.ca/~adamh | No, it's a new posting From clive@on-the-train.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 8 16:57:11 1997 Path: stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!novia!newsfeed.nacamar.de!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!ball120.demon.net!on-the-train.demon.co.uk!clive From: "Clive D.W. Feather" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.math,comp.misc,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.jewish,talk.religion Subject: Re: Linguistic Sources (was Re: 666 which was: Re: The Bible Code) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:25:33 +0100 Organization: Clive's laptop (part of Demon Internet Ltd.) Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5ph4ma$apn@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <5pj6ao$l26@nr1.calgary.istar.net> <33BEF91B.882@hamilton.edu> Reply-To: clive@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ball120.demon.net X-NNTP-Posting-Host: ball120.demon.net [193.195.225.120] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.04 beta 6 <81yImECxEkLwWotvkdN7a29E6a> Lines: 18 In article <33BEF91B.882@hamilton.edu>, Rick Decker writes >Question: What is the earliest known instance of a list of words >or names in alphabetical order? Does the instance substantially >antedate the development of the underlying alphabet? Argh: this comes up at a time that I'm nowhere near home. It's mentioned in _The_Codebreakers_; from memory, it's in the 14th (L) century. Clive "disordered" Feather -- Clive D.W. Feather | Director of Software Development | Home email: Tel: +44 181 371 1138 | Demon Internet Ltd. | Fax: +44 181 371 1037 | | Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address | From dimmick@ccsu.edu Tue Jul 8 16:57:44 1997 Path: stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!news.er.usgs.gov!jobone!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ycc.yale.edu!yale!usenet From: "Charles Wm. Dimmick" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.math,comp.misc,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.jewish,talk.religion Subject: Re: Linguistic Sources (was Re: 666 which was: Re: The Bible Code) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 14:26:06 -0400 Organization: Physics/Earth Sciences, Central Ct. State Univ. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <33C134BD.2020@ccsu.edu> References: <5ph4ma$apn@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <5pj6ao$l26@nr1.calgary.istar.net> <33BEF91B.882@hamilton.edu> Reply-To: dimmick@ccsu.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.152.122.95 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Clive D.W. Feather wrote: > Rick Decker writes > >Question: What is the earliest known instance of a list of words > >or names in alphabetical order? Does the instance substantially > >antedate the development of the underlying alphabet? > > It's mentioned in _The_Codebreakers_; from memory, it's in the 14th (L) > century. Immediately coming to mind is Psalm 119. Also there is at least one ostracon from ca. 10th century BC (or BCE if you prefer) which has a copy of the paleosemitic alphabet, possibly some student's practice slate. I seem to remember there being several of these found, some with writing left to right, and some with writing right to left. Charles Wm. "not to be confused with Ostracod" Dimmick "...and some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers like sae mony road-makers run daft -- They say it is to see how the warld was made!" From meirman@erols.com Tue Jul 8 16:58:21 1997 Path: stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!news.eng.convex.com!cs.utexas.edu!chi-news.cic.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news From: meirman@erols.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.math,comp.misc,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.jewish,talk.religion Subject: Re: Linguistic Sources (was Re: 666 which was: Re: The Bible Code) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 20:01:26 GMT Organization: Erol's Internet Services Lines: 55 Message-ID: <5prlh8$fjg@winter.erols.com> References: <5ph4ma$apn@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <5pj6ao$l26@nr1.calgary.istar.net> <33BEF91B.882@hamilton.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: col-as18s03.erols.com X-Received-On: 7 Jul 1997 17:02:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 In soc.culture.jewish on Sat, 05 Jul 1997 21:47:09 -0400 Rick Decker posted: >James C. Harrison wrote: >> >> >Good, now let me stray slightly afield. A language with an >ordered alphabet (as opposed, say, to a pictorial language) carries >with it the possibility of arranging words in alphabetical order. As >natural as extending the letter order to an ordering on words may appear >to us today, it's not an immediately obvious consequence of having an >ordered alphabet. I see your point. >Question: What is the earliest known instance of a list of words >or names in alphabetical order? The 34th Psalm, described as a Psalm of David, has its verses in alephbetical order, although this only shows in Hebrew. (There is one line of a header and a final verse at the end that are not included.) I am no scholar but this would be 2500-3000 years ago. There may be other psalms but I stopped looking. > Does the instance substantially >antedate the development of the underlying alphabet? You mean verbally there was such a list. I don't understand, but I am sure this makes sense. How could it be in alphabetical order if the alphabet hadn't been developed yet? The letters existed but they hadn't been assigned an order. The order was taken from the list you have in mind? If this happened it could easily have been lost to history. >Regards, >Rick >----------------------------------------------------- >Rick Decker rdecker@hamilton.edu >Department of Comp. Sci. 315-859-4785 >Hamilton College >Clinton, NY 13323 = != == (!) >----------------------------------------------------- P&M meirman@erols.com I miss many posts so please e-mail if you want me to see your answer. B'tsedek tishpot amitecho Lev 19:15 via Mishna Avos You shall judge your neighbor favorably.