From dickey Tue Dec 24 17:15:02 1996 From: Thomas E. Dickey Subject: ncurses 4.0 To: ewt@sunsite.unc.edu Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 17:15:02 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1594 Lines: 39 Hi. I just uploaded the 4.0 release for ncurses (Zeyd wanted 4.0 for the next version to resolve the problems with the newer ld.so). I also gave this version to Zeyd, who will presumably put it in his public area rsn. Let me know if there's a problem. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Begin3 Title: ncurses Version: 4.0 Entered-date: Tue Dec 24 17:00:00 EST 1996 Description: SVr4 and XSI-Curses compatible curses library and terminfo tools including tic, infocmp, captoinfo. The library can be configured to fall back to reading /etc/termcap for backward compatibility with BSD curses, but the distribution includes a copy of the master terminfo database. Supports color, multiple highlights, forms-drawing characters, and automatic recognition of keypad and function-key sequences. C++ binding (not supported) and example. Ada95 binding and examples. Includes man pages, test programs. Approved to replace 4.4BSD curses, June 1995. Keywords: curses, interface, screen, library Author: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd Ben-Halim) dickey@clark.net (Thomas Dickey) esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) juergen.pfeifer@T-Online.de (Juergen Pfeifer) Maintained-by: dickey@clark.net (Thomas Dickey) juergen.pfeifer@T-Online.de (Juergen Pfeifer) Primary-site: ftp.netcom.com /pub/zm/zmbenhal/ncurses ncurses-4.0.tar.gz Platform: Portable to any ANSI/POSIX system. Alternate-site: ftp.clark.net /pub/dickey/ncurses Alternate-site: prep.ai.mit.edu /pub/gnu Copying-policy: BSD-like. End -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From dickey Thu Dec 26 19:50:25 1996 From: Thomas E. Dickey Subject: 4.0 announcement To: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 19:50:25 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO Content-Length: 121 Lines: 6 etiquette prompts me to ask if you're going to make the announcement, or shall I? -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From dickey Fri Dec 27 07:50:03 1996 From: Thomas E. Dickey Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 07:50:03 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199612270516.PAA09425@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> from "Tony Nugent" at Dec 27, 96 03:16:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO Content-Length: 2407 Lines: 49 > The ncurses-1.9.9g release earlier this month caught most people by > suprise. The fact that is was released at all makes no sense (but see > below). both were announced on the mailing list (and I received my copy via the mailing list, so I'm reasonably certain that you also received the announcement in that manner). The understanding I had with Zeyd was that he'd issue the announcement for 4.0 -- but he's not responded, so I'll probably issue it today. > Another quick release? Let's hope that it's stable. But I get the > impression that this is for Linux only, as it has not appeared for > other platforms at other places, eg, prep.ai.mit.edu/pub/gnu/, > ftp://alpha.gnu.ai.mit.edu/gnu/, etc. I don't know about the upload policy at prep. And alpha has never been a release site for ncurses afaik. You meant to say "ftp site" rather than "platform", which has a different connotation hereabouts. As for "platforms", bear in mind that I've done most of the ports. I've built 4.0 on Linux, Solaris (cc, gcc), SunOS (gcc), IRIX (cc, gcc), CLIX (cc, gcc), HP-UX (gcc) (due to network problems I don't have the other machines up: AIX, SCO, Unixware). (I've not gotten any serious feedback from users on FreeBSD or NetBSD for some time). > Why this release? Why now? How different is the 4.0 API from 1.9.9e > and 1.9.9g? What are the implications? Do I need to recompile things read the NEWS file: it fixes the incompatibilies introduced by the newer ld.so on Linux. That was the main impetus to making a release, and has been a known problem since late September, though the release of ld.so.1.8.5 made it a serious problem. > to get them relinked against libncurses-4.0 before I can get rid of my > old 1.9.9{e,g} shared libs? Or will libncurses.so.4.0 work seamlessly > with all my current ncurses-linked applications? probably will. There's no change other than version number in the binary interface for 4.0 vs 1.9.9g (1.9.9e is a different matter altogether). > >From the 10k TO-DO list, it seems that there is still much to do. > How far away is ncurses-5.0? Was 4.0 really ready for release? 5.0 will probably introduce binary incompatibilities. I have two in mind. 4.0 was ok for release. The TO-DO list items aren't new (I added a couple as reminders, but those are issues through this entire calendar (1996) year, since January. -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From dickey Fri Dec 27 13:27:40 1996 From: Thomas E. Dickey Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 13:27:40 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199612271747.LAA20743@solutions.solon.com> from "Peter Seebach" at Dec 27, 96 11:47:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO Content-Length: 599 Lines: 16 > I'm beginning to suspect that the list is not getting mail to people; for instance, > I've now seen two messages regarding ncurses-4..0 unannouncement, but > I never saw the message they appear to be responding to. > > I also never saw the 1.9.9g announcement. > > Perhaps the list is dropping things occasionally? I've brought that up before & have always been told it's not happening. The only reliable way for me to determine it is if I get the reply (I did, in each case within an hour). However, it's been months since I've had to re-send something. -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From dickey Sat Dec 28 14:48:11 1996 From: Thomas E. Dickey Subject: Re: 4.0 announcement To: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 14:48:11 -0500 (EST) Cc: Juergen.Pfeifer@t-online.de (Juergen Pfeifer) In-Reply-To: <199612281904.LAA13303@netcom11.netcom.com> from "Zeyd M. Ben-Halim" at Dec 28, 96 11:04:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO Content-Length: 2522 Lines: 55 > Easier said than done. Also keep in mind that I don't read my email every hour > on the hour, so a lag of a day is always is possible. when I'm developing, I check my mail every hour or two. (Either for work or play, I'm online about 80 hours a week). I'm receiving this an hour or so after you sent it. > >my target was before christmas (you'd suggested the weekend before, if > >you recall), but the weekend was bad (I usually flush out development > >changes, which I did, then I had the flu or something as well for a few > >days). > > I figured as much, which means I won;t be able to take a good lokk at it until > the weekend (too much work :-( I did what I could. My home machine is in the basement, which gets a little cold in December. I could keep up with email (my wife has a 386 upstairs), but did no development. But I had the time, since I took off this week for other reasons (I've got too much work also, but I can do some of it remotely). > >> directory was big, and there was ncurses-4.0.tgz!!!!! I must have missed > >> something here. > >I did noticed that you emptied it last night (this is a day later), > >but didn't get your email til right now (23 hours later?). > > That is correct! The only reason I noticed ncurses-4.0.tgz is that it caused me > to exceed my quota! When I check my email from work the next day I saw a whole > new flame war about the release of 4. I'm always over quota (supposedly 5M). I've more than that in email. (But I've not been billed for it - yet ;-) It's not a new flame war, anyway - it's just another round in Eric's campaign. (btw, I've not seen any polite email from Eric, so I'd rather not respond to him). > >> I'd rather that no formal announcement is made until I've had a chance to take > >> a look which won't happne until this weekend. Netcom might be dropping emails > >> so we have to confirm receipt before we move on. > >I was holding on that -- packaging it & announcing to the list was all that > >I intended. > > Unfortunately, people tend to run with such announcements and start distributing > all over the world. If you remember earlier incidents with private betas created > by Eric being posted to prep. Eric denied it, as I recall (or at least the two incidents that I know of this year...). However, I did upload to sunsite shortly after I loaded to your incoming directory. Barring minor tweaks to documentation, that's 4.0 as far as I can see. I'm organizing my lists for 4.1 now. -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From dickey Sat Dec 28 19:52:40 1996 From: Thomas E. Dickey Subject: Re: 4.0 announcement To: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 19:52:40 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199612290046.QAA07997@netcom2.netcom.com> from "Zeyd M. Ben-Halim" at Dec 28, 96 04:46:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO Content-Length: 843 Lines: 24 > > >However, I did upload to sunsite shortly after I loaded to your incoming > >directory. Barring minor tweaks to documentation, that's 4.0 as far as > >I can see. I'm organizing my lists for 4.1 now. > > Most of my nitpicks ARE documentation related. I'd rather you not distribute > ncurses versions unless they are in my ftp directory. > For one the version number should be 4.0.0 not just 4.0. nope. technical reason. 4.0 maps cleanly onto the portable subset of shared library versions. a 3rd field isn't portable, isn't treated uniformly by the different platforms. I thought I cc'd you on that a month or so ago, when we were discussing the ld.so.1.8.5 problem. It was in response to something from Juergen. > > I'll send you my diffs when I get home (I'm at work right now). > > Zeyd > -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From dickey Mon Dec 30 05:49:40 1996 From: Thomas E. Dickey Subject: Re: problems with 4.0 To: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 05:49:40 -0500 (EST) Cc: Juergen.Pfeifer@t-online.de (Juergen Pfeifer) In-Reply-To: <199612300718.XAA19660@netcom17.netcom.com> from "Zeyd M. Ben-Halim" at Dec 29, 96 11:18:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO Content-Length: 444 Lines: 10 > My modem connection to netcom is flaking out, I can't seem to upload anything > bigger then 24K. I've to take files with me to work and transfer Monday evening. ok. I'm working on post 4.0 stuff. (I have a working GPM from the patch on Friday - but it impacts the 'poll()' configuration, so I won't post it til mid/late week, since _I_ have dialin problems to work, where most of my test machines are). -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From dickey Mon Dec 30 23:45:34 1996 From: Thomas E. Dickey Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement To: tony@trishul.sci.gu.edu.au (Tony Nugent) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:45:34 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199612310341.NAA03559@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> from "Tony Nugent" at Dec 31, 96 01:41:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO Content-Length: 2769 Lines: 55 > Hmm... I don't seem to have that message here. It could be that I > missed it in some local procmail configuration hiccup. that's possible. I really don't know. > > Juergen, Zeyd and I have been sending email to each other for a few months. > > Oh, I'm not suprised - the list isn't always an appropriate forum for > some issues. (I notice that you don't include Eric in that group). Eric's been (shall I say) hostile for months. I don't respond to people who are like that -- wastes time & energy and resolves nothing. > > > It obviously caught Zeyd by suprise too, and he's apparently going to > > > re-release it. Now it seems that we will soon have two ncurses-4.0 > > > releases. This is not good (and in this case, especially not good for > > > linux). > > No. He was aware that it would be coming, but he hasn't been devoting > > Hehehe... he's *wanted* it to happen for quite a while now :-) I'm not sure what Zeyd wants. > Why does Zeyd carry such authority with ncurses when he's not doing > anything for it? (Historical reasons, I assume). just historical. When I came into this, I _hoped_ that I could simply make my resizeterm/wresize changes and move on. But Zeyd is (ahem) not responsive to changes, and it took me a while to catch on that Eric was doing the work. Once that go through my head, then we went in a cycle where I'd beat on both of them to get fixes in (rather frustrating when I have to repeat patches 3-5 times before they get it in -- I've worked on a few dozen programs maintained by other people, and this one has been the hardest). If I'd simply wanted to own it, I'd have done _that_ in mid 1995. I'm a little dense, though. So I put up with Zeyd, because he's (sort of) running the mailing list (though the dropouts are confusing). > Anyway, enough of all this political crap... I'm more interested in > getting a good compile and install of ncurses-4.0 onto my linux box > here, getting rid of the old ncurses libraries, making sure other > applications don't cough and die, and continue development work on a > couple of programming projects that I'm working on (ever too slowly) > that use the ncurses library. right. The 4.x series ought to be pretty stable. Some people are pushing some of the extensions, but I think I'll try to keep those as build-options, so the basic release will be compatible. > BTW, have you noticed how popular your diffstat program has become? > I've mentioned (and demonstrated) it in several mailing lists, and it > has impressed many. Same for vttest (especially for those doing work > on the linux ggi project). good. (I'll be doing more on vttest in the next month or so; it's linked in with the work I'm doing on xterm). -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From dickey Tue Dec 31 06:15:03 1996 From: Thomas E. Dickey Subject: Re: more 4.0 woes To: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 06:15:03 -0500 (EST) Cc: Juergen.Pfeifer@t-online.de (Juergen Pfeifer) In-Reply-To: <199612310638.WAA25240@netcom17.netcom.com> from "Zeyd M. Ben-Halim" at Dec 30, 96 10:38:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO Content-Length: 456 Lines: 11 > My internet connection at work was down, and we can't get anyone at > uunet to get off their butts and fix it, yet. I'll push the oficial > release until Jan 5. This will give more time to comment on the > list on some of the issues raised. I don't have any issues (the nit in the trace format isn't worth changing the baseline for, since I've already got that in my next patch; the documentation issues are moot). -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Dec 27 00:36:22 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id AAA04610 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 00:36:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id VAA06729; Thu, 26 Dec 1996 21:20:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612270516.PAA09425@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> To: Ncurses Email List From: Tony Nugent Organization: nothing's organised around here mate! X-Sender: tonyn@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au X-Mailer: mh-6.8.3 Subject: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <9420.851663806.1@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:16:47 +1000 Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 4719 Lines: 112 Hi folks, First off, let me say what I was going to say last... Seasons greetings to all, and may 1997 be the start of something fantastic :-) It's the end of 1996. Geez, I'm been subscribed here all this year (and a few months longer) for at least three reasons - to keep up with the lastest news about ncurses, to help contribute to development in any small way I can (contributing to discussion, beta-testing, making suggestions and small coding contributions), and to perhaps learn something more about how it works and/or how I can use it better. The ncurses-1.9.9g release earlier this month caught most people by suprise. The fact that is was released at all makes no sense (but see below). Now for another complete suprise... I see ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/Incoming/ncurses-4.0.lsm and the ncurses-4.0.tar.gz (dated Dec 24th)... Begin3 Title: ncurses Version: 4.0 Entered-date: Tue Dec 24 17:00:00 EST 1996 Description: SVr4 and XSI-Curses compatible curses library and terminfo tools including tic, infocmp, captoinfo. The library can be configured to fall back to reading /etc/termcap for backward compatibility with BSD curses, but the distribution includes a copy of the master terminfo database. Supports color, multiple highlights, forms-drawing characters, and automatic recognition of keypad and function-key sequences. C++ binding (not supported) and example. Ada95 binding and examples. Includes man pages, test programs. Approved to replace 4.4BSD curses, June 1995. Keywords: curses, interface, screen, library Author: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd Ben-Halim) dickey@clark.net (Thomas Dickey) esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) juergen.pfeifer@T-Online.de (Juergen Pfeifer) Maintained-by: dickey@clark.net (Thomas Dickey) juergen.pfeifer@T-Online.de (Juergen Pfeifer) Primary-site: ftp.netcom.com /pub/zm/zmbenhal/ncurses ncurses-4.0.tar.gz Platform: Portable to any ANSI/POSIX system. Alternate-site: ftp.clark.net /pub/dickey/ncurses Alternate-site: prep.ai.mit.edu /pub/gnu Copying-policy: BSD-like. End Another quick release? Let's hope that it's stable. But I get the impression that this is for Linux only, as it has not appeared for other platforms at other places, eg, prep.ai.mit.edu/pub/gnu/, ftp://alpha.gnu.ai.mit.edu/gnu/, etc. Why this release? Why now? How different is the 4.0 API from 1.9.9e and 1.9.9g? What are the implications? Do I need to recompile things to get them relinked against libncurses-4.0 before I can get rid of my old 1.9.9{e,g} shared libs? Or will libncurses.so.4.0 work seamlessly with all my current ncurses-linked applications? >From the 10k TO-DO list, it seems that there is still much to do. How far away is ncurses-5.0? Was 4.0 really ready for release? This is inexcusable... why no discussion or warning or announcement about this here? (Until now). What's this email list supposed to be used for anyway? The TO-DO, ANNOUNCE, NEWS and README files could have fruitfully been posted here over the past few weeks to stimulate such discussion. Ok, we're all aware of the "politics" that's been going on. Personally I don't understand... with you guys such excellent, prolific and dedicated coders; I don't really want to hear any more of this - hopefully because it has all been resolved. Resolved... but how? Eric is no longer listed in the lsm as one of the maintainers, and that fact speaks volumes. I no longer have ncurses-1.9.9g_961221/ncurses.lsm to check, but I get the feeling that 1.9.9g was the last to be credited as being maintained by Eric (thus the quick release). [Ahh, the plot thickens]. Hopefully this has all come about with some order and understanding and a miminum of hostility (hey, shit happens, right?) If the situation is murkier, well I guess we haven't heard that last of this (and pity for that). Eric, we all know how much work you have done for ncurses in the past. It was no secret that you were going to "retire" when the next release was out, and it seems that that time has come. If you are now no longer part of the current development project (for whatever reason), then I would like to acknowledge the work you have done for ncurses. Thanks mate. I wish you well. Are you still going to be the maintainer of the terminfo/termcap databases? In any event, it seems that your energies are going into other projects, `fetchmail' being one of them - and Eric, as I've been using it for several weeks now, let me say that it does a dandy job of doing POP for me. :-) Ok, enough with the politics. Let's get back to ncurses development! Cheers Tony (an innocent but observant victi^H^H^H^H^Hbystander). From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Dec 27 07:58:43 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id HAA05040 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 07:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id EAA16569; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 04:50:38 -0800 (PST) From: "T.E.Dickey" Message-Id: <199612271250.HAA25771@clark.net> Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 07:50:03 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199612270516.PAA09425@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> from "Tony Nugent" at Dec 27, 96 03:16:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 2407 Lines: 49 > The ncurses-1.9.9g release earlier this month caught most people by > suprise. The fact that is was released at all makes no sense (but see > below). both were announced on the mailing list (and I received my copy via the mailing list, so I'm reasonably certain that you also received the announcement in that manner). The understanding I had with Zeyd was that he'd issue the announcement for 4.0 -- but he's not responded, so I'll probably issue it today. > Another quick release? Let's hope that it's stable. But I get the > impression that this is for Linux only, as it has not appeared for > other platforms at other places, eg, prep.ai.mit.edu/pub/gnu/, > ftp://alpha.gnu.ai.mit.edu/gnu/, etc. I don't know about the upload policy at prep. And alpha has never been a release site for ncurses afaik. You meant to say "ftp site" rather than "platform", which has a different connotation hereabouts. As for "platforms", bear in mind that I've done most of the ports. I've built 4.0 on Linux, Solaris (cc, gcc), SunOS (gcc), IRIX (cc, gcc), CLIX (cc, gcc), HP-UX (gcc) (due to network problems I don't have the other machines up: AIX, SCO, Unixware). (I've not gotten any serious feedback from users on FreeBSD or NetBSD for some time). > Why this release? Why now? How different is the 4.0 API from 1.9.9e > and 1.9.9g? What are the implications? Do I need to recompile things read the NEWS file: it fixes the incompatibilies introduced by the newer ld.so on Linux. That was the main impetus to making a release, and has been a known problem since late September, though the release of ld.so.1.8.5 made it a serious problem. > to get them relinked against libncurses-4.0 before I can get rid of my > old 1.9.9{e,g} shared libs? Or will libncurses.so.4.0 work seamlessly > with all my current ncurses-linked applications? probably will. There's no change other than version number in the binary interface for 4.0 vs 1.9.9g (1.9.9e is a different matter altogether). > >From the 10k TO-DO list, it seems that there is still much to do. > How far away is ncurses-5.0? Was 4.0 really ready for release? 5.0 will probably introduce binary incompatibilities. I have two in mind. 4.0 was ok for release. The TO-DO list items aren't new (I added a couple as reminders, but those are issues through this entire calendar (1996) year, since January. -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Dec 27 11:57:07 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id LAA11499 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id IAA22111; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 08:34:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric S. Raymond" Message-Id: <199612271557.KAA21764@snark.thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 10:57:55 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199612271250.HAA25771@clark.net> from "T.E.Dickey" at Dec 27, 96 07:50:03 am Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Content-Type: text Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 3259 Lines: 65 Thhomas Dickey writes: > both were announced on the mailing list (and I received my copy via the mailing > list, so I'm reasonably certain that you also received the announcement in that > manner). The understanding I had with Zeyd was that he'd issue the > announcement for 4.0 -- but he's not responded, so I'll probably issue it > today. Um. I never saw a 1.9.9g announcement. I never saw a 4.0 announcement. I was never informed of this "understanding". This is bad, among other things because I would have wanted to issue a terminfo database 10.0 to go with 4.0. I'm pleased that 4.0.0 is out. I'm even more pleased that Thomas has finally divulged a current bug list. I still haven't seen 2. A proposed release schedule, with either target dates or functional criteria. 3. A theory of release procedure (who issues releases, where do we launch it, how do we publicize it). but if this is a real, stable release that we can hand Linux integrators then my most important gripe has been handled and point (2) at least recedes in immediate importance a bit. But I do wonder why I've been dropped from the LSM maintainer list without any discussion or inquiry as to whether I wanted to remain on it. While I don't want to be toiling at this code till the end of time, when I leave should be *my* choice, or at least one not made without consulting me. The state of the 4.0 README file suggests that Thomas has done quietly what I threatened to do publicly -- seized control of the source base. He now calls himself "maintainer since 1.9.9e", implicitly dealing Zeyd and myself out of the picture. Perhaps this implies a theory of future release procedure after all, though we really ought to develop one that all three active maintainers (Thomas, Juergen Pfeifer, myself) agree on. Considering Zeyd's long virtual absence from the project, I can't say I really object to Thomas's palace coup per se (nor do I expect Juergen Pfeifer will). If Thomas is willing to take primary maintainance responsibility and issue regular, timely releases with up-to-date bug lists then that's just fine with me. That would address at least two out of three of the problems that caused me to become tactically rude and obnoxious for a while. However, considering that more than half of the inquiry and bug mail comes to me directly, rather than to the ncurses list, removing me from the maintainer list and keeping me in the dark would not be a very smart thing to do deliberately. And to reflect present reality, the LSM ought to list Thomas and Juergen and myself and drop Zeyd (though he should certainly be retained as a listed coauthor). I don't know what notice Juergen got of these developments, and his response is his business. For myself, if leaving me out of the loop and omitting me from this LSM were simple errors which will be corrected, I'm quite willing to overlook them and continue cooperating (politely, even). Besides the bug mail issue, there's also various unfinished business in the code I'll be needed for. If these actions were somebody's policy decision, then explanation (at least to me, privately, but better publicly) is certainly called for. -- Eric S. Raymond From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Dec 27 11:57:11 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id LAA11513 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:57:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id IAA22104; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 08:34:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric S. Raymond" Message-Id: <199612271600.LAA21778@snark.thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:00:16 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199612270516.PAA09425@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> from "Tony Nugent" at Dec 27, 96 03:16:47 pm Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Content-Type: text Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 278 Lines: 8 Tony Nugent writes: > Are you still going to be the maintainer of the terminfo/termcap > databases? These are a separate issue from ncurses itself. Yes, I intend to maintain them for the forseeable future. -- Eric S. Raymond From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Dec 27 12:56:50 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA22636 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 12:56:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id JAA24130; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 09:47:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:47:55 -0600 (CST) From: Peter Seebach Message-Id: <199612271747.LAA20743@solutions.solon.com> To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 309 Lines: 9 I'm beginning to suspect that the list is not getting mail to people; for instance, I've now seen two messages regarding ncurses-4..0 unannouncement, but I never saw the message they appear to be responding to. I also never saw the 1.9.9g announcement. Perhaps the list is dropping things occasionally? -s From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Dec 27 13:24:58 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id NAA28494 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 13:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id KAA24781; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 10:17:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric S. Raymond" Message-Id: <199612271821.NAA22384@snark.thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 13:21:03 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199612271747.LAA20743@solutions.solon.com> from "Peter Seebach" at Dec 27, 96 11:47:55 am Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Content-Type: text Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 535 Lines: 13 Peter Seebach writes: > I'm beginning to suspect that the list is not getting mail to people; for > instance, I've now seen two messages regarding ncurses-4..0 unannouncement, > but I never saw the message they appear to be responding to. > > I also never saw the 1.9.9g announcement. > > Perhaps the list is dropping things occasionally? I hope you are correct. I would be delighted if some of the recent miscommunications turned out to be nobody's intention. -- Eric S. Raymond From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Dec 27 14:36:01 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA13493 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 14:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id LAA26517; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:28:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 13:28:04 -0600 (CST) From: Peter Seebach Message-Id: <199612271928.NAA21549@solutions.solon.com> To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 797 Lines: 16 Hmm. I'm *pretty* sure I never saw anything about ncurses-4.0, until I saw a pair of *responses* (messages with "Re: in the Subject). Is it possible that, in some cases, only some people get some messages? Although it's fairly rare, messages *do* get lost fairly badly; someone whose system had < 1 second ping times to my computer sent me email that didnt' reach me for 7 *months*. (I got it in October, after he sent it in March.) (And his reply to my response took over a month.) I don't know how anyone would track this; after all, you can't send out an email saying "respond if you don't get this...", and, of course, the chances are fairly good that the failures are not consistent. (For instance, both I and esr@ apparently got my message asking if the list was dropping things.) -s From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Dec 27 15:23:54 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id PAA22433 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 15:23:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id MAA27489; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 12:12:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612272012.MAA27361@gandalf.sigmasoft.com> To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 27 Dec 1996 10:57:55 EST." <199612271557.KAA21764@snark.thyrsus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <27318.851717554.1@gandalf.sigmasoft.com> Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 12:12:34 -0800 From: Thorsten Lockert Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 962 Lines: 21 > Thhomas Dickey writes: > > both were announced on the mailing list (and I received my copy via the mailing > > list, so I'm reasonably certain that you also received the announcement in that > > manner). The understanding I had with Zeyd was that he'd issue the > > announcement for 4.0 -- but he's not responded, so I'll probably issue it > > today. > > Um. I never saw a 1.9.9g announcement. I never saw a 4.0 announcement. > I was never informed of this "understanding". This is bad, among other > things because I would have wanted to issue a terminfo database 10.0 > to go with 4.0. I never saw any of those announcements either. And I really wanted to see those, as I am the one that has integrated it (and will be updating it) in OpenBSD. Thorsten -- Thorsten Lockert | postmaster@sigmasoft.com | Universe, n.: 1238 Page Street #B | hostmaster@sigmasoft.com | The problem. San Francisco, CA 94117 | tholo@sigmasoft.com | From zmbenhal@netcom.com Fri Dec 27 17:12:30 1996 Received: from netcom6.netcom.com (zmbenhal@netcom6.netcom.com [192.100.81.114]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA16936 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 17:12:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from zmbenhal@localhost) by netcom6.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id OAA25252; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 14:13:07 -0800 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 14:13:07 -0800 From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Message-Id: <199612272213.OAA25252@netcom6.netcom.com> To: dickey@clark.net Subject: Re: 4.0 announcement Status: RO Content-Length: 625 Lines: 16 >Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 19:50:25 -0500 (EST) > >etiquette prompts me to ask if you're going to make the announcement, or >shall I? Weird! I'm only receiving this today (Friday). Then I noticed that incoming directory was big, and there was ncurses-4.0.tgz!!!!! I must have missed something here. I'd rather that no formal announcement is made until I've had a chance to take a look which won't happne until this weekend. Netcom might be dropping emails so we have to confirm receipt before we move on. If it makes things easier call here at work (818) 786-8801 or later tonight after 8pm PST at home (310) 470-0281. Zeyd From dickey Fri Dec 27 17:44:17 1996 From: Thomas E. Dickey Subject: Re: 4.0 announcement To: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 17:44:17 -0500 (EST) Cc: Juergen.Pfeifer@t-online.de (Juergen Pfeifer) In-Reply-To: <199612272213.OAA25252@netcom6.netcom.com> from "Zeyd M. Ben-Halim" at Dec 27, 96 02:13:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO Content-Length: 1219 Lines: 31 > >Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 19:50:25 -0500 (EST) > > > >etiquette prompts me to ask if you're going to make the announcement, or > >shall I? > > Weird! I'm only receiving this today (Friday). Then I noticed that incoming you gotta get a better ISP (sorry). my target was before christmas (you'd suggested the weekend before, if you recall), but the weekend was bad (I usually flush out development changes, which I did, then I had the flu or something as well for a few days). > directory was big, and there was ncurses-4.0.tgz!!!!! I must have missed > something here. I did noticed that you emptied it last night (this is a day later), but didn't get your email til right now (23 hours later?). > I'd rather that no formal announcement is made until I've had a chance to take > a look which won't happne until this weekend. Netcom might be dropping emails > so we have to confirm receipt before we move on. I was holding on that -- packaging it & announcing to the list was all that I intended. > If it makes things easier call here at work (818) 786-8801 or later tonight > after 8pm PST at home (310) 470-0281. email is usually fine (I've only one phone line anyway ;-). -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Dec 27 19:41:27 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id TAA12125 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 19:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id QAA03686; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 16:35:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <01BBF457.A5728AE0@funnel39.btx.dtag.de> To: "'ncurses-list@netcom.com'" Subject: RE: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 00:37:28 +-100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BBF457.A5728AE0" X-Sender: 06162912249-0001@t-online.de (Juergen u. Inga Pfeifer) From: Juergen.Pfeifer@T-Online.de (Juergen Pfeifer) Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 9134 Lines: 152 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBF457.A5728AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- Von: Eric S. Raymond[SMTP:esr@snark.thyrsus.com] Gesendet: Freitag, 27. Dezember 1996 11:57 An: ncurses-list@netcom.com Betreff: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement The ncurses mailing list seems not to be very reliable from my point of view. I got no announcements for 1.9.9g or 4.0, although I was of course aware that they will come. I'm polling Thomas's ftp site on a regular base, that's the way I try to be up-to-date. It's a good thing that 4.0 is out of the door, because it is a good and stable code base to continue our work. I don't understand the comment why people think this is for Linux only. But of course we should post it also on prep.mit.edu/pub/gnu to make clear that this is not the case. I just want to remind you that a few month ago I already suggested to define a procedure for the release and further development schedules, but at those times the situation between Eric and Thomas already was a bit delicate. As always I vote for an adult and professional behaviour. I'm doing all this work just for fun as part of my hobby in my spare free time. I really don't want to deal with such situations. It's enough to deal with politics and inter- personal problems in my professional life. With ncurses I simply want to write tiny little code, so please don't disturb me... Of course I'm pleased that I'm now listed as maintainer of ncurses, although there was no formal request (active or passive) to become one. But because I could read the README in the weekly drops and I didn't object I think this is quite ok. Nevertheless I only feel responsible for my contributions (i.e menu, forms and the Ada95 binding) and the parts I'm working on (panel and C++ binding in the future). If Eric feels himself as maintainer of ncurses and is still doing work on the project, he should be in the list. When I started to contribute to the project he was very helpful, I never had problems to get good advise. To be honest, I sometimes had problems with his coding (you know, wsync...() stuff was a nightmare). But this may be true for others with my coding... :-) It is of course his decision whether or not he should be on the list or not, I suggest to fix that immediately. The situation with Zeyd is similar. I was very surprised after month of total silence to get mails from him a few weeks ago, telling us that we should release. Of course - all the honor and glory for the ncurses development for Zeyd - but he isn't active since more than a year. So I really believe he shouldn't be any longer on the maintainer list. This raises also the question to find a new home for the ncurses mailing list. Thomas was absolutely right to take the initiative and make a release. I see him as the primary maintainer, because he's doing most of the work on the project at the moment. But I still would like to see a more planned schedule for the next releases. This means we need a kind of early discussion who want's to contribute what in which time for the next release. Who want's to fix which known bugs ? I'm prepared to contribute, but I've not enough time to coordinate such activities. So if Thomas or Eric start such a task, I'll immediately send a list of what I want to contribute for ncurses-4.x ! Thomas, you did a great job over the last year to guarantee that ncurses becomes a tested and well engineered project. Not just a quick hack of functionality, but a complete, truly portable product free of major bugs. As far as I'm concerned I try to deliver well tested code to you, but it is always good to know that there is somebody like you to take it and make it. I'm quite sure Eric will agree to this statement. So I hope that the beginning of a new year gives us the opportunity to bring the ncurses project team into a better public shape and to deliver a great next version with much less pain than this one. All my best wishes for 1997 Juergen ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBF457.A5728AE0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjgXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ADABAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAE0AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABuY3Vyc2VzLWxpc3RAbmV0Y29tLmNvbQBTTVRQAG5jdXJzZXMtbGlzdEBuZXRjb20u Y29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAYAAAAbmN1cnNlcy1saXN0QG5ldGNv bS5jb20AAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAGgAAACduY3Vyc2VzLWxpc3RAbmV0Y29tLmNv bScAAAACAQswAQAAAB0AAABTTVRQOk5DVVJTRVMtTElTVEBORVRDT00uQ09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAA CwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAADEzsBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90 ZQAxCAEEgAEAIAAAAFJFOiBuY3Vyc2VzLTQuMCB1bi1hbm5vdW5jZW1lbnQA7goBBYADAA4AAADM BwwAHAAAACUAHAAGAEIBASCAAwAOAAAAzAcMABsAFwAhAAoABQBBAQEJgAEAIQAAADU0NEUxRTU1 M0Y2MEQwMTFBQzMxNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAMEGAQOQBgAsDAAAEgAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAAL ACkAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AIBGnetO9LsBHgBwAAEAAAAgAAAAUkU6IG5jdXJzZXMtNC4wIHVu 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bg3PDt9AQX1AAABCkAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMGCig/BF9LsBQAAIMGCig/BF9LsBHgA9 AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAADvrA== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBF457.A5728AE0-- From zmbenhal@netcom.com Sat Dec 28 14:03:54 1996 Received: from netcom11.netcom.com (zmbenhal@netcom11.netcom.com [192.100.81.121]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA00237 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 14:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from zmbenhal@localhost) by netcom11.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id LAA13303; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 11:04:27 -0800 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 11:04:27 -0800 From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Message-Id: <199612281904.LAA13303@netcom11.netcom.com> To: dickey@clark.net Subject: Re: 4.0 announcement Cc: Juergen.Pfeifer@t-online.de, esr@locke.ccil.org Status: RO Content-Length: 1957 Lines: 46 >> >Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 19:50:25 -0500 (EST) >> > >> >etiquette prompts me to ask if you're going to make the announcement, or >> >shall I? >> >> Weird! I'm only receiving this today (Friday). Then I noticed that incoming >you gotta get a better ISP (sorry). Easier said than done. Also keep in mind that I don't read my email every hour on the hour, so a lag of a day is always is possible. >my target was before christmas (you'd suggested the weekend before, if >you recall), but the weekend was bad (I usually flush out development >changes, which I did, then I had the flu or something as well for a few >days). I figured as much, which means I won;t be able to take a good lokk at it until the weekend (too much work :-( >> directory was big, and there was ncurses-4.0.tgz!!!!! I must have missed >> something here. >I did noticed that you emptied it last night (this is a day later), >but didn't get your email til right now (23 hours later?). That is correct! The only reason I noticed ncurses-4.0.tgz is that it caused me to exceed my quota! When I check my email from work the next day I saw a whole new flame war about the release of 4. >> I'd rather that no formal announcement is made until I've had a chance to take >> a look which won't happne until this weekend. Netcom might be dropping emails >> so we have to confirm receipt before we move on. >I was holding on that -- packaging it & announcing to the list was all that >I intended. Unfortunately, people tend to run with such announcements and start distributing all over the world. If you remember earlier incidents with private betas created by Eric being posted to prep. >> If it makes things easier call here at work (818) 786-8801 or later tonight >> after 8pm PST at home (310) 470-0281. >email is usually fine (I've only one phone line anyway ;-). Then for now we have to live with lag and not assume that someone has already received email before proceeding. Zeyd From zmbenhal@netcom.com Sat Dec 28 19:46:06 1996 Received: from netcom2.netcom.com (zmbenhal@netcom2.netcom.com [192.100.81.108]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA14324 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 19:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from zmbenhal@localhost) by netcom2.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id QAA07997; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 16:46:43 -0800 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 16:46:43 -0800 From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Message-Id: <199612290046.QAA07997@netcom2.netcom.com> To: dickey@clark.net Subject: Re: 4.0 announcement Status: RO Content-Length: 456 Lines: 11 >However, I did upload to sunsite shortly after I loaded to your incoming >directory. Barring minor tweaks to documentation, that's 4.0 as far as >I can see. I'm organizing my lists for 4.1 now. Most of my nitpicks ARE documentation related. I'd rather you not distribute ncurses versions unless they are in my ftp directory. For one the version number should be 4.0.0 not just 4.0. I'll send you my diffs when I get home (I'm at work right now). Zeyd From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Mon Dec 30 01:16:26 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id BAA13973 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 01:16:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id WAA19610; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 22:10:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199612300606.QAA32602@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> To: ncurses-list@netcom.com From: Tony Nugent Organization: nothing's organised around here mate! X-Sender: tonyn@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au X-Mailer: mh-6.8.3 Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement In-Reply-To: message-id <199612271250.HAA25771@clark.net> of Fri, Dec 27 07:50:03 1996 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <32598.851925986.1@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 16:06:27 +1000 Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 1144 Lines: 26 On Fri Dec 27 1996, "T.E.Dickey" wrote: > > The ncurses-1.9.9g release earlier this month caught most people by > > suprise. The fact that is was released at all makes no sense (but see > > below). > both were announced on the mailing list (and I received my copy via the mailing > list, so I'm reasonably certain that you also received the announcement in that > manner). The understanding I had with Zeyd was that he'd issue the > announcement for 4.0 -- but he's not responded, so I'll probably issue it > today. I did not - and have not yet - seen such an announcement. AFAIK, I've been getting everything from ncurses-list@netcom.com with no hiccups. But the point I was trying to make was that there was absolutely no discussion about any impending release *before* it was done. No "last calls for patches and bug reports" or anything like that. Now I see some messages about bugs in 4.0... It obviously caught Zeyd by suprise too, and he's apparently going to re-release it. Now it seems that we will soon have two ncurses-4.0 releases. This is not good (and in this case, especially not good for linux). Cheers Tony From zmbenhal@netcom.com Mon Dec 30 02:17:58 1996 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com (zmbenhal@netcom17.netcom.com [192.100.81.130]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id CAA21013 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 02:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from zmbenhal@localhost) by netcom17.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id XAA19660; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 23:18:36 -0800 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 23:18:36 -0800 From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Message-Id: <199612300718.XAA19660@netcom17.netcom.com> To: dickey@clark.net Subject: problems with 4.0 Status: RO Content-Length: 166 Lines: 5 My modem connection to netcom is flaking out, I can't seem to upload anything bigger then 24K. I've to take files with me to work and transfer Monday evening. Zeyd From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Mon Dec 30 03:11:29 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id DAA28614 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 03:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id AAA22228; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 00:03:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric S. Raymond" Message-Id: <199612300807.DAA04877@snark.thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 03:07:11 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199612300606.QAA32602@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> from "Tony Nugent" at Dec 30, 96 04:06:27 pm Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Content-Type: text Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 819 Lines: 21 Tony writes: > But the point I was trying to make was that there was absolutely no > discussion about any impending release *before* it was done. No "last > calls for patches and bug reports" or anything like that. Now I see > some messages about bugs in 4.0... This is why I keep insisting that we need a release *procedure*. The procedure should include the following steps: 1. Release preannouncement to ncurses-list. Includes a release target date, the current bug list, and a last call for bugs and features. This should happen two or three weeks pre-release. 2. Feature freeze announcement, one or two weeks before release. 3. Formal announcement. Should include a target date for the next release. Zeyd, are you listening? -- Eric S. Raymond From dickey Mon Dec 30 06:50:36 1996 From: Thomas E. Dickey Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement To: tony@trishul.sci.gu.edu.au Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 06:50:36 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199612300606.QAA32602@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> from "Tony Nugent" at Dec 30, 96 04:06:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO Content-Length: 2935 Lines: 68 > I did not - and have not yet - seen such an announcement. AFAIK, I've > been getting everything from ncurses-list@netcom.com with no hiccups. Well, here's what _I_ got back after posting 1.9.9g. (And if you missed the other stuff, the gist of it was that I packaged the 4.0 release, but am waiting for Zeyd to issue the announcement, as a courtesy, since it's his mailing list). From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Dec 1 20:37:31 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id UAA12505 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 20:37:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id RAA26790; Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:24:40 -0800 (PST) From: "T.E.Dickey" Message-Id: <199612020124.UAA06527@clark.net> Subject: ncurses 1.9.9g release To: ncurses-list@netcom.com (Ncurses Mailing List) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 20:24:38 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO I've completed my regression builds for ncurses 1.9.9g (a couple of minor fixes since last night). It's available in ftp.clark.net:/pub/dickey/ncurses/ncurses-1.9.9g.tgz and will probably be in Zeyd's directory soon (I put a copy in his incoming directory). (this is an interim release - further changes are planned) -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net > > But the point I was trying to make was that there was absolutely no > discussion about any impending release *before* it was done. No "last > calls for patches and bug reports" or anything like that. Now I see > some messages about bugs in 4.0... ahem: there will also be bugs in 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, ... (the bug that you're referring to is a minor one -- one of the debugging traces isn't properly formatted ;-) There was no call for patches, since that only leads to certain parties running amuck, putting alpha-level changes into the final release. Do recall that 1.9.9e was broken because of a last-minute change, as were 1.9.8, 1.9.7. Also recall that the main reason for my maintaining a public beta is to forestall that problem as nearly as I can. Juergen, Zeyd and I have been sending email to each other for a few months. > It obviously caught Zeyd by suprise too, and he's apparently going to > re-release it. Now it seems that we will soon have two ncurses-4.0 > releases. This is not good (and in this case, especially not good for > linux). No. He was aware that it would be coming, but he hasn't been devoting much time to it. (And he'll end up changing documentation just to assert his position anyway). -- Thomas E. Dickey dickey@clark.net From tonyn@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au Mon Dec 30 22:44:29 1996 Received: from sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au (root@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au [132.234.192.80]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id WAA02457 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au (tonyn@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au (8.7.3/) with ESMTP id NAA03559 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 13:41:21 +1000 Message-Id: <199612310341.NAA03559@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> To: "T.E.Dickey" From: Tony Nugent Organization: nothing's organised around here mate! X-Sender: tonyn@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au X-Mailer: mh-6.8.3 Subject: Re: ncurses-4.0 un-announcement In-Reply-To: message-id <199612301150.GAA05360@clark.net> of Mon, Dec 30 06:50:36 1996 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3555.852003676.1@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 13:41:17 +1000 Sender: tonyn@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au Status: RO Content-Length: 3667 Lines: 77 Thomas, G'day mate... On Mon Dec 30 1996, you wrote: > > I did not - and have not yet - seen such an announcement. AFAIK, I've > > been getting everything from ncurses-list@netcom.com with no hiccups. > Well, here's what _I_ got back after posting 1.9.9g. (And if you Hmm... I don't seem to have that message here. It could be that I missed it in some local procmail configuration hiccup. > Juergen, Zeyd and I have been sending email to each other for a few months. Oh, I'm not suprised - the list isn't always an appropriate forum for some issues. (I notice that you don't include Eric in that group). > > It obviously caught Zeyd by suprise too, and he's apparently going to > > re-release it. Now it seems that we will soon have two ncurses-4.0 > > releases. This is not good (and in this case, especially not good for > > linux). > No. He was aware that it would be coming, but he hasn't been devoting Hehehe... he's *wanted* it to happen for quite a while now :-) > much time to it. (And he'll end up changing documentation just to assert > his position anyway). This is something else that - as an observer - is puzzling me. I've been subscribed to ncurses-list for well over 12 months, and it's been painfully obvious that he's done little - if any - development work for ages. *You* have been carrying the bulk of the development (and doing a great job btw), with Eric and Juergen making contributions (yeah, I got your mail about what you think about Eric's patches). Why does Zeyd carry such authority with ncurses when he's not doing anything for it? (Historical reasons, I assume). Hmm... politics. Questions like that can leave a sour taste in ones mouth. When you are involved in working with a group of people - who you don't necessarily know personally because they live scattered all over the world - in the development of such an important software project, such issues are bound to arise. And they need to be resolved. I admit that my questions about all this into the ncurses list have brought all this out into the open. I don't apologise for that... someone needed to do it (besides, if it wasn't me then it would have been someone else). However, I believe that in the long run all this will be resolved amicably and forgotten in the midst of the busy nitty-gritty of further ncurses development. Anyway, enough of all this political crap... I'm more interested in getting a good compile and install of ncurses-4.0 onto my linux box here, getting rid of the old ncurses libraries, making sure other applications don't cough and die, and continue development work on a couple of programming projects that I'm working on (ever too slowly) that use the ncurses library. Anyway, keep up the good work. The last thing that I would want to see happen is your obvious enthusiasm for ncurses to be blunted. You're doing a great job, and I hope that you get ncurses to the point where you are satisfied that there are no more bugs and that there's nothing more to do, as you find yourself completely happy with what it has become. BTW, have you noticed how popular your diffstat program has become? I've mentioned (and demonstrated) it in several mailing lists, and it has impressed many. Same for vttest (especially for those doing work on the linux ggi project). Cheers . Tony _--_|\ tony@trishul.sci.gu.edu.au / *\ T.Nugent@sct.gu.edu.au ae.nugent@student.qut.edu.au\_.--._/ tnugent@cit.gu.edu.au tony@sctnugen.ppp.gu.edu.au v Brisbane Qld Australia -=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=- From zmbenhal@netcom.com Tue Dec 31 01:37:51 1996 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com (zmbenhal@netcom17.netcom.com [192.100.81.130]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id BAA05979 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 1996 01:37:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from zmbenhal@localhost) by netcom17.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id WAA25240; Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:38:29 -0800 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:38:29 -0800 From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Message-Id: <199612310638.WAA25240@netcom17.netcom.com> To: dickey@clark.net Subject: more 4.0 woes Status: RO Content-Length: 242 Lines: 7 My internet connection at work was down, and we can't get anyone at uunet to get off their butts and fix it, yet. I'll push the oficial release until Jan 5. This will give more time to comment on the list on some of the issues raised. Zeyd From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Dec 28 14:02:00 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA29985 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 14:01:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id KAA27292; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:54:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 10:54:56 -0800 From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Message-Id: <199612281854.KAA12224@netcom11.netcom.com> To: ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Subject: status of ncurses 4 Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 265 Lines: 8 Regardless of what anyone else says/said ncurses 4 is NOT "out". Please do not distribute it if it is not in my ftp directory. It should definitely not be on sunsite or prep. I'll prepare an official release this weekend, it should be out Sunday night PST. Zeyd From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Dec 28 21:12:12 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id VAA25234 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 21:12:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id SAA08069; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 18:07:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric S. Raymond" Message-Id: <199612290211.VAA29389@snark.thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: status of ncurses 4 To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 21:11:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com In-Reply-To: <199612281854.KAA12224@netcom11.netcom.com> from "Zeyd M. Ben-Halim" at Dec 28, 96 10:54:56 am Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Content-Type: text Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 531 Lines: 11 > Regardless of what anyone else says/said ncurses 4 is NOT "out". Please > do not distribute it if it is not in my ftp directory. It should definitely > not be on sunsite or prep. > > I'll prepare an official release this weekend, it should be out Sunday night PST. Oh, good. Have you got an incoming FTP drop area where I can place a terminfo 10.0? I wanted to do an update anyway, and through an odd chain of circumstances it's going to be a major one. -- Eric S. Raymond From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Dec 28 23:51:37 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id XAA15012 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 23:51:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id UAA11551; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:45:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:45:19 -0800 From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Message-Id: <199612290445.UAA11101@netcom11.netcom.com> To: esr@snark.thyrsus.com Subject: Re: status of ncurses 4 Cc: ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 677 Lines: 16 >> Regardless of what anyone else says/said ncurses 4 is NOT "out". Please >> do not distribute it if it is not in my ftp directory. It should definitely >> not be on sunsite or prep. >> >> I'll prepare an official release this weekend, it should be out Sunday night PST. > >Oh, good. Have you got an incoming FTP drop area where I can place a >terminfo 10.0? I wanted to do an update anyway, and through an odd chain of >circumstances it's going to be a major one. You can either place in ftp://ftp.netcom.com/puz/zm/zmbenhal/incoming or email it to me. Don't send it to the list, I think it burbs on large files. If you put something in incoming, send me a note. Zeyd From owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Dec 29 03:10:49 1996 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com (listless.netcom.com [206.217.29.105]) by mail.clark.net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with ESMTP id DAA10064 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 03:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id AAA16120; Sun, 29 Dec 1996 00:05:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric S. Raymond" Message-Id: <199612290808.DAA01090@snark.thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: status of ncurses 4 To: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 03:08:52 -0500 (EST) Cc: ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com In-Reply-To: <199612290445.UAA11101@netcom11.netcom.com> from "Zeyd M. Ben-Halim" at Dec 28, 96 08:45:19 pm Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Content-Type: text Sender: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-ncurses-list@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ncurses-list@netcom.com Status: RO Content-Length: 534 Lines: 11 >If you put something in incoming, send me a note. Your incoming now contains a terminfo.ti 10.1.0 file which you should replace the current terminfo source with. Changes are minor. If I can get all the work done before you ship, you may see a major upgrade. It's been pointed out to me that terminfo ough to know about the IETF assigned names for terminal types described in RFC1700 (this would make life easier for telnet clients). I'm working on that now. -- Eric S. Raymond